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Yuriy Butsko Interview for radio station "Orpheus"

Writer's picture: Ilia KononovIlia Kononov
This last chronologically and perhaps the most vivid and informative interview of the composer was recorded on Radio Orpheus in 2012 and preceded the broadcast of a recording of one of Butsko's last works - "Canon to the Terrible Angel". The interview was conducted by Levon Akopyan and Irina Tushintseva



- Yuri Markovich, as an introduction to this performance, allow me to ask you what kind of music this is - I understand that most of our listeners will be listening to it for the first time. I would like you to give a brief commentary on this music and say what you consider necessary to say about its background.


- This is the latest composition and the latest performance, because, as you know, not every composition is immediately performed, sometimes it is stored, and sometimes it is not performed at all during the author's lifetime. This composition was performed and heard at the Great Hall of the Conservatory in October of last year at the anniversary concert of our famous choirmaster Stanislav Kalinin, who was turning 70. And so, Stanislav Semenovich asked composers he knew, including me, if they had anything new for the anniversary concert. And he took my Canon to the Terrible Angel.

This text is very interesting. More than five centuries ago, Rus' was ruled by the "Russian despot", as he called himself, titled himself and signed documents, now known as Ivan the Terrible. The era, the spirit of Ivan the Terrible are strongly expressed in his text, which really touched me, pierced me. The text is authentic, taken from the author's own version, and not from a Russian translation, which would be impossible - too much would be lost. The canon is addressed to the Guardian Angel of Ivan the Terrible, who chooses such an addressee for his penitential canon. The Tsar repents of his sins, he recalls the very terrible circumstances of his life, his behavior - apparently, he truly repents. And it seems to me that this repentance is expressed very strongly, he was an impeccable writer, and I wanted to bring the same musical intonation to his text. Everything was performed by students and teachers of the Moscow Conservatory.


– To what extent has the intonation pattern of the melody created by Ivan the Terrible been preserved?


- We do not know the chant for this canon, we do not know whether it was created - hardly. This is a literary text. Unlike the musical texts that Ivan the Terrible did leave - his chant, his hand, is credited with four stichera. According to historical evidence, he knew the znamenny chant and the church service very well.

There are no quotes, not even references to the Znamenny chant, which was actually in use in his time, which has survived to this day in Old Believer church services. This is a free embodiment of an oratorio-operatic type, or something like that. I wanted to be as accessible as possible, as emotionally convincing as possible. This is completely original music, built like a liturgy. At first, the choir sings a cappella, then sonority is added, two pianos and an organ are added, although it sounds as if imperceptibly, quietly, then also the celesta - that is, all the instruments capable of conveying the idea of bell-ringing, various types of bell ringing. This is the accompaniment ...


- You are talking about the special participation in this score of instruments capable of conveying the bell-like quality. I recall your relatively old work, the Polyphonic Concerto, in which the same instruments participate, although the dramaturgy there, as I understand it, is different, the choir only enters at the end.


- Yes, you mentioned a composition from the earliest period, the end of the 60s - beginning of the 70s. I had just graduated from the conservatory, started studying Znamenny chant, and according to my faith I sing it myself in the left choir of the Old Believer church. I wanted to find a method of handling the Znamenny mode - it is a special mode. I was looking for a method that comes from the tones contained in this Znamenny chant itself, a way to harmonize the chant. There have been many such attempts in the history of music - many approached Znamenny chant, therefore harmonized it and thought about what to do with it, how to handle it, this very complex, incomprehensible and seemingly static, closed space. I managed to unlock it by discovering an idea that I formulated as “12-sound at a distance,” that is, 12-sound not in the chromatic German-Schoenberg cluster understanding, but at a distance, which gives a completely different spectrum of sound, a different beauty - it's like a rainbow, the delight of the presence of these tones at a distance. In the Polyphonic Concerto, not only is the chant quoted, each stichera, all 19 numbers are built on it. In general, this is a methodical, even methodological work. It's like the Well-Tempered Clavier for Mr. Bach - he wrote a school of playing keyboard instruments and a school of understanding music, and then repeated it in the second volume. To give such a school, which was lacking in Russian music, is what I wanted then. It was a completely different task, and it was so long ago...


– Fortunately, discs with a complete recording of the Polyphonic Concerto have recently been released, and perhaps it will be possible to make this music gain the fame it deserves.

You have made a huge authorial journey from Concerto to Canon. Has something changed in you in relation to Russian antiquity?


– The affection and love have remained the same, if not more, but the method of delivery, I think, should now be accessible. I want to be understood by my country. Of course, by those who are interested and want to listen and understand – not by everyone. The method has changed, the intonation of speaking, or something, with which I address the listener has changed. But the object has not changed at all, it is becoming higher and more significant. Sometimes only despair takes hold: why are you doing this? There is no answer to this. After all, there are things that are closed, which should remain closed. Every person who has stood at the liturgy understands what I am talking about. And if I dared to do this, to open it – I do not know what assessment this will be…


– If we don’t talk about secrets, were there any figures or personalities in your life who left an indelible mark on your music?


– Of course, there were many of them, you can’t tell about them all in one program.


– It often happens that your music, created based on your inner needs, is either not performed, or is performed once and does not receive due publicity. Just recently we welcomed the production of your “Notes” at the Pokrovsky Theatre.

As for me, I had a record of the opera conducted by Kondrashin for a long time and I listened to it many times.

What is your attitude towards this new production, a production of the 21st century, where the madman himself sits on stage with a laptop?


Well, this is a composition from my second year at the conservatory, which I wrote myself, without showing it to anyone – I wanted to try myself. There was a big scandal, but then it turned out that this composition really played a role in my fate. But I don’t want to talk about it for long. But the theater – it thought about it for 50 years. Nothing has changed, the only thing that has changed is that I was admitted to the master’s table. And I should be delighted about this? No, it’s not interesting.

But here's what's interesting: I recently turned to Gogol's text, thinking that I knew it by heart. Holy cow: it turns out that I didn't notice the second half of the "Notes". After all, this story is told very cleverly, from two points of view - Poprishchin, the titular councilor, and the dog, which I missed. And I slapped myself on the forehead: now I'd like to write a second volume of the "Notes" - from the dog's point of view, creating a new libretto. But I don't have the strength: I'm old, gray-haired... I'm not 24, but 74... And I won't do it anymore.

But it is terribly interesting, it is the secret of the classics. Gogol is the greatest and very dangerous author. His danger is that he has not been deciphered as a personality. It is not only literature, not only stylism, he was doing something else. He hints at his mission in one of the paragraphs of his confession - "Selected Passages", but it was not read by either his contemporaries or later. Probably, it was the secret of changing himself. Gogol did what was impossible, and looked for the secret of changing both himself and humanity - a crazy, impossible task. But he took it on and with his short life ... Remember, 42 years - and they buried the poor guy alive ... there is such a legend ... And many other legends ... Any of Gogol's actions must be studied under a magnifying glass. This is terribly important, this is very interesting.

This is a man who aims. You want to write "Dead Souls", so you will be Chichikov. You want to write musical exercises on "The Government Inspector" - you will become Khlestakov. You want to write "Notes of a Madman" - you will become that hero, the madman. This is a terrible person who with his bony embraces from the coffin grabs those who approach him. Why he does this - we do not know. I have been through this myself. This is a special conversation. And what did the gentlemen put in, so what took so long to think about?


– But during that same period you had such bright, concert-successful pieces as “Evening” and “Wedding Songs”.

- You mention the compositions of the first courses of the conservatory. My teacher Sergei Artemyevich Balasanyan asked me: "Where are you from?" - From the October Revolution School. - Oh, you are a choir singer. Okay, write something for the choir."

And one of his first questions: “Are you Russian?” – This is a very important, significant question. – Yes? Then write something from Russian folklore.” He definitely guided me, thank you. And I lived and worked on these concepts of Russianness and identity – they were said in passing, but Sergei Artemyevich was a subtle person and could assume the prospects of what was said – I lived and worked on these concepts.

The longer I lived and worked, the more I saw that my homeland was in trouble. And I became an orthodox Russian. I was not like that before. I did everything that life offered – orders, theater, cinema. But gradually I narrowed my search to the country in which I live and which is having the hardest time. In my opinion. And now it is especially difficult – in a world that has become wider, more open. I want to be Russian and I want to speak Russian with a Russian person. Not with the one who is modern, but with the one who will be. And if he will be, he will want to know: how did they live before me, what did they do. What were they thinking, what have they prepared for me.

I needed to build a platform, and I found three words that start with the letter "e": ethnos, ethos, and eros. Just don't confuse eros with sex, there is no "e" there, there is an "e". Eros in the Platonic sense. Without these three points, a person cannot exist in space. There may be 4, 5, 6 points, but this is already excessive. Let's remember Vitruvius. According to his theory, one is an accent, two is a line, three is a system. Three is already a system, it stands. Four is good, it is stable, like a table, but three is a system.

I discovered this for myself long ago, at the dawn of my misty youth. I formulated and lived by this rule. Let's say that "Notes" is eros, it is about love, about Gogol's failed love: after all, it is unclear how and with whom he lived. Sometimes they try to discover his dubious sexual orientation - but they fail, although they have studied his life to the day. This is a mysterious and very strong eros. Idealistic.

Most cantatas are ethnic. And finally, the Polyphonic Concerto is ethos, it is God, or what is called by this word, which is not given to us to know. The ancient Jews said - He, and they were right, although they are not always right.

A person must touch everything, materialize everything. They always quote: in the beginning was the Word. Not a word, but a concept, a meaning. And it is even likely that in the beginning was intonation, sound. Children first moo something, this emotionally charged moo. Probably, humanity developed in the same way – from intonation, from the tonal tension of this intonation.


Who do you see as comrades in your worldview in history and in modern times?


- You know, I'll say the name Vysotsky. I worked at Taganka, I did one, then another play. Nobody knew that Vysotsky was Semenovich. Only Volodya, Volodya. True, I was on formal terms with him...

Why did he break out among his peers, why did he attract people so much? He sang fate, he sang himself. He sang his songs roughly, on some two chords. He also said: "Yuri Markovich, they scold me for primitive melodies, come on, help me. My melodies are bad. Come on - I will do the lyrics, and you will do the melodies." I answered: "No, Volodya, you have good melodies, you don't need anything."

He was torn, like a wolf, with his destiny. Not everyone can do that. The pop fraternity – they earn money, they love themselves very much. Probably, such people are needed. But Vladimir stood out precisely because of his destiny. In different circumstances of life, it was clear that he was within the framework of destiny, like a pendulum. He was very fixated on this. A sad destiny, you can’t drink so much and so on. He could live. We were born the same year. But he miscalculated his strength and broke down.

And when he passed away, I started listening to his songs – and I didn’t know much, only what was heard in the plays. And then I slapped myself on the forehead: where was I? After all, I sang to them, the actors, before the plays, I saw that Vysotsky had crooked legs, a tummy. But I didn’t know the scale of his songs.

There was a performance where he sang only one song – about wolf hunting. And the audience came only for that. You could see that the man was literally tearing his flesh in front of you and blood was oozing out. And then there was not just applause, people went into a frenzy.

I remember, at Hamlet with my music, I look into the audience from behind the scenes and say: “Volodya, everyone there is writing, everyone has magicians on their knees. Let them write, they want to – let them.”


– What did you focus on when writing your music for Hamlet?


– Lyubimov did not allow recording the performances, but the sound engineer Vladimir Mironovich secretly recorded them, and I had this recording on tape. Later, I secretly brought it to Orpheus. And with Hamlet, I initially refused. Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich. Take Shostakovich, but I will not. Vysotsky got furious: how can you, and what kind of Hamlet am I, but I will play Hamlet, I will play myself. Before me, Paul Scofield played, Smoktunovsky, and I will play. And he convinced me. With his intonation. And I thought: he is right – and I cooked up some music. At Taganka, all music was called by one word. Yuri Petrovich commanded: “Give us an accent!” or: “Not that accent, another one!” It was a fun time. But it turns out that I sang for Vysotsky, if Hamlet was his last performance. The last music he heard.


Your theatrical life also led you to another Gogol – “The Government Inspector”.


Well, theatrical life demands: you take what they offer. But I don’t like either cinema or theatre. I’m rather afraid of theatre, and I really don’t like cinema. I have to be responsible for the soundtrack and I can listen to something of my own with pleasure. I saw the task, the director, and, for example, in “The Road to Calvary” I saw the fates of my parents, my father, General Butsko, who went through all the wars…

But cinema has too much influence on a person. "The most dangerous of the arts is cinema" - that's how I would paraphrase Lenin. There are wonderful films, wonderful directors, but this is mass violence against the subconscious of a person, in principle. You sit in the dark, your will is fettered, you are subordinated to the screen. It's a hypnotic session.

There is a film in which Mayakovsky himself plays – “The Young Lady and the Hooligan”. Sergei Yutkevich restored it with my music. At the end, the hero dies, and Mayakovsky plays his future death. His face is distorted… Yutkevich gives one, two, three freeze frames of Mayakovsky’s face… And I wrote a composition of desperate power. We invited Lilya Brik to the first screening. And at the end of the film, she began to scream and cry: “Volodya, you are there, and I am here, this cannot be, Volodya, come here”. But she was almost 90 years old, and she stretched out her hands and called him… I watched in horror. That was the beginning of our acquaintance and my great, unique love for her…

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